Get a roll bar, period! [Archive] (2024)

Dr. How?

11th June 2002, 20:16

Forget it will help in a roll over, and forget it kinda looks cool and forget you can install it yourself...point is that all of that is true, and it tightens up the rear end of the car like the strut tower brace does to the front. I got the basic hard dog and installed it myself. I am not proud of the modification to the trim pieces I did to put it together, but other than that it is a clean install and looks good and makes the car safer and tightens up the handling alot...and the cost, about $320, which includes shipping. Sorry no phots, but you can see them at all kinds of places. An excellent modification.

I did not get it contemplating a roll over, actually the presence of a roll bar will allow me to do some more track days...and i want more track time, but the other stuff came with it!

I think it a very smart move too.

Conrad Turner

11th June 2002, 20:53

hiker chick

11th June 2002, 21:08

carcrazy

11th June 2002, 21:33

all that form just a Hardbar? Imagine, you would have gotton even more from a Sport or Hardcore. Hard bars are not exactly safe, safer than a style bar, but may not hold up in a violent roll. Seriously though, why didn't you get a 4 pt?

What is the attachment like on a Hardbar? Main hoop with 7 bolts at each end, one that bolts to the stock seat belt reels? this would be pretty beefy, but the rear extending bar would help a lot. does the Hardbar come in 1 3/4" tubing like the HC? Did you not get the 4 pt mounting bec you didn't want to hack the sheet metal in your car?

Caffeine

11th June 2002, 22:03

Originally posted by Dr. How?:
Forget it will help in a roll over, and forget it kinda looks cool and forget you can install it yourself...point is that all of that is true, and it tightens up the rear end of the car like the strut tower brace does to the front. I got the basic hard dog and installed it myself. I am not proud of the modification to the trim pieces I did to put it together, but other than that it is a clean install and looks good and makes the car safer and tightens up the handling alot...and the cost, about $320, which includes shipping. Sorry no phots, but you can see them at all kinds of places. An excellent modification.

I did not get it contemplating a roll over, actually the presence of a roll bar will allow me to do some more track days...and i want more track time, but the other stuff came with it!

I think it a very smart move too.No.

I don't need one, I don't want one, and it would be of little benefit to me anyway as I'm too tall to fit under one. It would probably be more dangerous to me than having no rollbar, as I'd be hitting my head on it a fair bit.

A rollbar that adequately cleared my head would not fit under the soft or hard tops.

Mark Booth

11th June 2002, 22:20

Every 4 point roll bar that I have ever seen installed on a Miata is absolutely butt ugly. Period!

(Yes, some are better looking than others but ugly is still ugly.)

Mark

Virtos

11th June 2002, 22:26

Here's my car:
http://mediaservice.photoisland.com/auction/May/20025221105679920249724.jpg

Guess what would happen to my passenger if Honda did not reinforce b-pillars? Guess how many people would be dead if I had a Miata? My thoughts were exactly the same: I don't need a rollbar because I'm a good driver. Bull****! (excuse my english please) I double that: get a rollbar period!

Virtos

11th June 2002, 22:31

carcrazy

11th June 2002, 22:52

Dr. How?

11th June 2002, 23:02

the hard dog bar is a 4 bolt attachment with no cutting of the sheet metal and no problem with the top or the seat belts. It attached to the two bolts behind the seat that hold the seat bolt reel on, on the top of the seat belt tower there are also two bolts.

Isn't it a good thing we have so many choices and freedom to do as we please?

It took me about 3 hours to take stuff off ,install the bar, and about 3 hours to cut the pieces of the trim and put it back together again. Add another hour to make sure you did it all right and adjust. I did a write up on the install in the garage section.

What confirmed me on this particular bar is the ease of installation (no metal cutting), that fact you can use the stock windblocker, and that it does not interfere with the top operation or seat belts(well...the belts are not the same, but you get used to it fast).
I also saw a photo of a car that rolled with this bar, it did better than the windshield frame!

There are so many choices, finishes, and manufacturers tha offer real roll bars for this car.

RichDS

11th June 2002, 23:16

redhotpepper

12th June 2002, 00:30

Not the best solution but I just leave my hardtop on! ;)

I also have a style bar for a "little extra padding".

Redhotpepper

Caffeine

12th June 2002, 01:02

Originally posted by qsoundrich:
I've seen some of the Hard Dog bars with the reinforced diagonals and I think they make the car look pretty serious. I like it--it differentiates your Miata and basically tells the world that you intend to race your car. I'm sure a lot of people don't like that.. oh well that's the look I'm going for. I will buy a Hard Dog as soon as I can afford it, mainly for safety. As for tall drivers cracking their skulls--it's dumb to install a roll bar and not put the proper padding on it as well. If you're THAT tall I'm not sure a Miata would be that much fun anyways.If I was to buy a rollbar it would be for track work.
For track work a rollbar is supposed to clear your helmet by 2 inches.

Now 2 inches + helmet thickness + my height, no soft top or hard top is going to fit over that.

So I'm THAT tall and I'm sure my Miata / MX5 is a hell of a lot of fun. I just don't want a rollbar. I accept that this choice may leave me slightly less protected in a roll over, or maybe a side impact, it's a choice I'm prepared to make.

An Dr How? : Isn't it a good thing we have so many choices and freedom to do as we please?

Yes it's great. I choose not to have a rollbar. Isn't this the second topic you've started on rollbars? Last one I believe you were suggesting that all cars must have roll bars installed at the factory. I think that's a pretty big intrusion on someone's freedom of choice :rolleyes:

01SEBRG

12th June 2002, 02:38

OK then......

I'd say, with the rollbar, you should wear the helmut, suit, and not drive over sixty.........

geeeeesssssshhhhhhh.....

Protect me?????????

Vote on it, and take another freedom away.......Priorities......yea....
Maybe I'm getting old......
But some of you people make me want to puke......

Vote the roll bar in, and I'm back to walking, or the bus,
or a bullet to the head.
Protect yourself at all times,
with thought and skill, not a big bubble :rolleyes:

:ohno:

[ 12 June 2002, 02:53: Message edited by: ludes ]

oaksmith

12th June 2002, 04:43

oaksmith

12th June 2002, 04:51

Virtos

12th June 2002, 07:54

PilotKD

12th June 2002, 09:24

Originally posted by Virtos:
carcrazy:
I'm still debating whether I want a Miata. It is a fun car, but buying it will leave me out of the track fun and unprotected in side impact and rollover accidents. :( No, I wouldn't say it'd be a good idea to get a car you'd be paranoid driving in.

Kris (10AE #3031)

ICULQQK

12th June 2002, 10:23

Ezdanzn2

12th June 2002, 10:35

MiaMiata

12th June 2002, 11:01

Originally posted by ezdanzn:
You guys are really good, concerning about safety, and protection. Before I bought my Miata this year I was thinking buying a Harley Davidson motorcycle and then I was thinking about protection, so I decided on a Sports car. This is better than a motorcyle. If I am thinking protection....what about DRIVE-BY-SHOOTING? Roll bar will protect me????? Just enjoy your life. LIFE IS TOO SHORT. DO ANYTHING YOU WANT ON YOUR MIATA ROLL BAR OR NO ROLL BAR STYLE BAR OR NO STYLE BAR........PERIOD........I agree. You may even want to out and get a motorcycle.(Which I think is more fun!) :D

[ 12 June 2002, 11:02: Message edited by: MiaMiata ]

ICULQQK

12th June 2002, 11:10

Originally posted by ezdanzn:
You guys are really good, concerning about safety, and protection. Before I bought my Miata this year I was thinking buying a Harley Davidson motorcycle and then I was thinking about protection, so I decided on a Sports car. This is better than a motorcyle. If I am thinking protection....what about DRIVE-BY-SHOOTING? Roll bar will protect me????? Just enjoy your life. LIFE IS TOO SHORT. DO ANYTHING YOU WANT ON YOUR MIATA ROLL BAR OR NO ROLL BAR STYLE BAR OR NO STYLE BAR........PERIOD........Remember "Safty" is a realitive term. Most people on this board are safer without one than I am with one. With how I use my car the chances are pretty good that I will use my rollbar, also I needed one for my harness. If your car is transportation to the wine and/or cheese shoppe, or just for cruising through the country side, save your money and don't spoil the looks of your car.

Mine is taken on the track, autocrossed, and generally driven very hard! I feel that with the risks I take the bar is needed.

Kestrel

12th June 2002, 11:32

Dr. How?, you really are quite the "Rollbar Zealot", aren't you? ;) I am very glad you like your rollbar, but why are you so intent on forcing everyone to do what you've done (put on a rollbar)? Why are you so driven to take away my freedom of choice? :(

You know, I think all Miatas should have to be painted either hot pink or lime green, 'cause that would make them easier for other drivers to see, thus making the Miata safer and less likely to get into an accident. :rolleyes: I bet you'd be happy to let me paint mine hot pink, but would be pretty unhappy when the painters showed up at your house.

I can appreciate that you are very happy with your rollbar, and want to let folks on this forum know your opinion on how great they are. That's fine, and it's exactly what this forum is for -- sharing thoughts, opinions, and ideas. But when you start infringing on my personal freedom of choice, you go too far, lose my respect, and make a lot of [freedom loving] people very unhappy.

Please stop.

edited for a dang mispeelin' (I hate those...)

[ 12 June 2002, 11:34: Message edited by: TXBavarian ]

89

12th June 2002, 11:33

I think for most people a roll bar is less safe. Why? When you're rear-ended (the most common type of collision) your head will be thrust back against the bar and the bar will win. You're going to need more than just a few inches between you and the bar to prevent this from happening.

So, by the time the roll bar has saved you in a rollover, it has cracked your skull 100 times from rear-end collisions...

I do like the look of 'em, just not the overall increased risk.

bwob

12th June 2002, 12:01

Kudos and a tip of my cap to Caffeine, ludes and TXBavarian for saying what should be said as well as avoiding the herd mentality. Celebrate individualism! And a special thanks to Conrad Turner for being especially concise and to-the-point while cutting all the way to the bone.

Period.

bwob
__________
Friends don't let friends drive Talbot Tagoras

Dan&Zoomy

12th June 2002, 12:21

Originally posted by 89:
I think for most people a roll bar is less safe.I agree that this is probably true if the bar isn't properly padded.

So, by the time the roll bar has saved you in a rollover, it has cracked your skull 100 times from rear-end collisions...
With padding, instead of "cracked" its more like bumped. I've tried slamming my head against my padded bar and it feels like hitting an over-inflated soccer ball. Slight blow but mostly you bounce off.

I see it as hedging my bet. I'll take 100 bumps to the head over decapitation any day.

Virtos

12th June 2002, 12:58

BlueSal

12th June 2002, 13:02

MilesA

12th June 2002, 13:21

MiataNutHead

12th June 2002, 13:37

Good grief people. I think Dr. How is just excited about his stinkin' rollbar, not about taking peoples' freedom away. Save that paranoia for when the gov't wants you to start registering your guns.

FWIW I have a HDHCDD and it allows me access to more track days. Yes, I feel safer w/ it. Yes, it is padded to protect my noggin in event of a rear or side hit. Yes, I think my car looks better w/ it. And if it was a manufacturer option, I probably would have gotten it.

Jeff

[ 12 June 2002, 13:39: Message edited by: MiataNutHead ]

TR3-2001LE

12th June 2002, 14:01

Dan&Zoomy

12th June 2002, 14:07

Originally posted by MilesA:
Not to be a downer or anything, but the forces involved in a collision at speed are amazingly high. A frontal collision at 40 mph is supposed to be similar to jumping off a 5 story building.Yes, but thats in the forward direction -- like hitting your head against the windshield header. In most types of accidents the rearward acceleration of your head wouldn't be quite that high (and actually, in my case, I'd have to be lifted up out of the seat, then backwards to even reach the bar. In most cases I'll just bounce off the headrest.)

And yes, I know banging my head against the bar scares the other motorists and doesn't really replicate the kind of forces involved in a crash. :) But it gives me a rough idea. I can tell you its a lot nicer than hitting an unpadded bar. :)

[ 12 June 2002, 14:09: Message edited by: Dan & Zoomy ]

LWW

12th June 2002, 14:17

Save that paranoia for when the gov't wants you to start registering your guns.I will never give up my right to keep and arm bears dagnabbit!

All kidding aside mandatory rollbars will probably happen with the next liberal administration in DC.

PEACE

Kestrel

12th June 2002, 14:43

Originally posted by MiataNutHead:

"...Good grief people. I think Dr. How is just excited about his stinkin' rollbar, not about taking peoples' freedom away. Save that paranoia..."The good doctor (and others) has been on a couple of threads about this same topic, saying things very close to "make 'um mandatory'. For example:

Originally posted by Dr. How? on Roll bars on all cars (http://www.miataforum.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=006390;p=2):

"...should it be mandatory or factory optioned, worth the debate I say..."If I have misread/misjudged Dr. How? in this, I apologize. I (and most people on this forum?) am happy that he likes his rollbar. I read with great interest the posts on the benefits to installing a rollbar (stiffens the chassis, some folks think it looks good/better, and of course the added safety). And as long as we are talking about having a rollbar as a factory/dealer installed option, you get very little disagreement. I’ve even said that a dealer installed optional rollbar is on my list of things that I’d like to see offered (see Besides power, what would you like to see offered on the Miata? (http://www.miataforum.com/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=11;t=006520;p=2))

But start a thread with a title like Get a roll bar, period! or Roll bars on all cars, and don't be surprised if us "freedom of choice" and "take responsibility for your own safety/actions" fighters decide to weight in! :p Many of us feel that our government is intrusive enough.

RichDS

12th June 2002, 14:52

Dr. How?

12th June 2002, 16:12

For those of you who somehow read into my posts that you must get a roll bar, sorry, i have never said that,i am only giving you my opinion as to the merrits of one. The bonus in all of this for me is that it is actually a better car with one, much to my surprise, and i wanted to say that...i beleive that getting a roll bar is a good thing...period. Not that you have to....take a deep breath now.

Another side benifit i just noticed is that wind somehow buffets a little less, the cabin is more quiet when going topless, not completely , but it sort of adds to the calmness of the cabin area just a little. I love to drive without the top on as you can imagine.

As far as head bumping, don't think so...i am 5ft 8inches and i am not even close to the bar ever, it is above my head and behind the seat a good couple of inches. Some of the other bars are more intrusive. I also drive with the seat fairly far back and at an angle too.

Man,I am not saying you must register your roll bar in any way, or that it should be law: just that it is a good thing, period.

More good than having the right not to have one in the event of a roll over. More good with a stiffer chassis than having the same right not to bar your car, etc....period.

The "period", that is for accentuation of my opinon, i am sold and now walk the walk.

My other post were to request opinions on what bar you like or have or whatever...before i made the commitment and install.

I am one of those kinda folks that does not like others to tell what to do for my own good("should" is the operative word here)...when others do venture their opinons in that area i am thankful that they care to share that personal info with me,actually i am still free to take the bar off if I want to spend the time doing so.

Most of what I gotten on this forum has been helpful, and most of my posts reflect value and the gathering and sharring of info. I have also met some great fellow carnuts here.

Sure, once in a while someone who neesto get a life deceides to make some sort of personal attack, but this is simply their need to share their opinion in their own unique way,no?

I will share a secret with those folks...you really do not have to do anything that anyone tells you to do here, it is just a forum! And you are actually free to make up your own mind and have your own opinion,that others may or may not agree with too.

Keep sharring your opinions here, I know i will.

[ 12 June 2002, 16:19: Message edited by: Dr. How? ]

cgreer00

12th June 2002, 16:40

Just to address some of the negative comments,

Safety:
A rollbar is never going to be less safe:
One that is padded correctly will be ok in a rear end collision. If you are ever hit from the side, which is a VERY common accident, the rollbar will give you a tremendous amount of protection due to its strength and the fact that it sits between you and the outside of the door. Rollovers, obviously you are much much more likely to live with a rollbar. Even if your head clears the rollbar, you still have a better chance with one than without one. I have never known of a Miata owner who died from hitting their head on the rollbar, however there have been quite a few who died in rollovers....some food for thought.

Looks:
This is purely subjective but my car gets MUCH MUCH MUCH more attention after I put my bar on. Before it was just another Miata, now it is a very rare Miata...there are many in Knoxville but very few with rollbars. Many times I have walked out of stores with someone standing next to my car, looking at the bar. I would say it increased the attention I get by 100%.

Confidence:
I will fly around curves, through the mountains, and down the track without a second thought. I feel much much more safe in my car with the bar over my head. I know that I could flip my car 5 times and the bar would still be there to keep my head from hitting the pavement.

Having said this, do what you want. it is your car, and it is your life, and you get to make all of the decisions.

pat conlon

12th June 2002, 18:41

Originally posted by cgreer00:
Just to address some of the negative comments,

Safety:
A rollbar is never going to be less safe:
One that is padded correctly will be ok in a rear end collision.
__________________________________________________

You are right, ONLY when the roll bar has proper clearance. Padding the bar helps protect a helmeted head but has very little benefit to the unprotected skull and the grey matter within.
At the acceleration velocity the padded bar will contact the skull in a minor to moderate rear end collision the result will include signifiant trauma to the brain as well as compression of the C-1 and C-2 vertebra along with surrounding soft tissue injury.
After working in the ER, I have learned a few things....It doesn't take much to scramble your eggs.
Life is a crap shoot. Odds are that some airhead will rear end my car before I roll it. Stastics prove this point. I would love to have the safety of a properly fitted roll bar but I am 6'3" and my head will not clear the bar. End of discussion.
Does this give me less confidence when driving the twisties fast?
You betcha, and it should.

[ 12 June 2002, 18:58: Message edited by: pat conlon ]

Dan&Zoomy

12th June 2002, 19:20

Originally posted by pat conlon:
Padding the bar helps protect a helmeted head but has very little benefit to the unprotected skull and the grey matter within.Thats just not true. SFI padding greatly reduces the impact force to the head. See this study which was conducted on a DOT 11 lb. unhelmeted headform:

http://home.austin.rr.com/violet/eccles/barpad.html

Caffeine

12th June 2002, 19:46

I'm 6'6" and there's no way a rollbar is going to clear my head, and still allow me to use the soft top.

So a rollbar would be more dangerous to me than no rollbar, as I'm statistically far more likely to have a rear end accident than a rollover.

I have been involved in 4 accidents in my car, and other cars, 2 as a passenger and 2 as a driver. 3 of these accidents were relatively minor, ranging from $2000 to $9000 damage, 2 were single vehicle accidents.

Of these accidents, a roll bar may have helped slightly in 1 (side impact), but the impact was too far forward to avoid the consequences (passenger killed)

A rollbar would have seriously injured me in 2 accidents (rear ended).

The risks of getting a rollbar for me outweight the potential benefits. Therefore I choose not to get a rollbar.

I'm not saying everyone should not have a rollbar, but everyone should have, and does have the choice whether to get one or not. People need to make their own decision one way or the other.

If I were to get a MX5 as a race car, and run it often at a race track, where the possibility of a rollover is much higher, then yes, I would get a rollbar, I'd also do away with the soft top too....

pat conlon

12th June 2002, 20:10

Originally posted by Dan & Zoomy:
Originally posted by pat conlon:
Padding the bar helps protect a helmeted head but has very little benefit to the unprotected skull and the grey matter within.Thats just not true. SFI padding greatly reduces the impact force to the head. See this study which was conducted on a DOT 11 lb. unhelmeted headform:

http://home.austin.rr.com/violet/eccles/barpad.htmlThanks for the info Dan. Progress is being made.

Look closely at the testing criteria...10 mph isn't that fast. Remember the G force on the brain increases exponentially as the impact speed increases...ie 11 mph isn't a 10% increase.
Now what about the neck and soft tissue trauma?

Dan&Zoomy

12th June 2002, 20:25

Kendalle

12th June 2002, 20:35

[QUOTE]Originally posted by MiataNutHead:
[QB]Good grief people. I think Dr. How is just excited about his stinkin' rollbar, not about taking peoples' freedom away. Save that paranoia for when the gov't wants you to start registering your guns.

Well said.

socal pat

12th June 2002, 20:54

Mark Booth

12th June 2002, 21:22

Looks:
This is purely subjective but my car gets MUCH MUCH MUCH more attention after I put my bar on.A 400 pound dude running down the street naked would get a lot of attention too. That doesn't make him attractive. :)

Mark

pat conlon

12th June 2002, 22:09

01SEBRG

13th June 2002, 00:10

I'm still puking!!!!!

Never should have traded the 71 LTD in on the Miata Huh.....?
People didn't even park close to me, let alone, run into me.
I quite riding when this state mandated the helmut law.
I will give up my Miata when I need bar or helmut.....
Driving like I was invisible, always worked for me on the bike, and now in my Miata.
On the street, I need the belt, helmut,
airbag, bar, like an angel that the public has predicted I should have.
When some Idiot with a cell,drink,burger,non-safe ride, sends me to the dust bowl, I'll probably realize half the fault.
This ride is small, realize this, and drive it that way.....

:)

BOOGIE DADDY

13th June 2002, 01:13

"Drive Small!"

I like it better than Zoom Zoom! Thanks Ludes! :)

Green00

13th June 2002, 08:11

EvoRoadster

13th June 2002, 08:45

Unfortunately, if you are too tall for a rollbar the choice as to whether you should get one or not has been largly taken away from you. It is an imperfect world we live in and each individual will do what seems best for them at the moment. Just choosing to drive one of the smallest cars offered in the land of SUV behemoths being driven by people with their heads elsewhere :p says alot about our collective personalities; we are all correct in our own way.

Mark Booth; you need to stop fantasizing about 400lb naked men... :D

Mark Booth

13th June 2002, 09:22

Evo,

Actually, I regret making that comment because of the chance that someone here might take it personal. :)

Mark

EvoRoadster

13th June 2002, 11:10

Originally posted by Mark Booth:
Evo,

Actually, I regret making that comment because of the chance that someone here might take it personal. :)

MarkLOL, you got me!! :D :D :D

altiain

13th June 2002, 11:13

I have mixed feelings about a roll bar on a Miata that is strictly street driven. As has been pointed out before ad nauseaum, the chances for a rollover on the street in such a low CG car are pretty slim (before someone points it out, yes, I know it has happened before). If my Miata was strictly used for the street, or if I had another one for daily driving, it most likely would not have a rollbar in it.

On the other hand, my Sport was bought primarily for autox and open track, so the addition of a rollbar (along with plenty of other safety equipemnt, including a 6-point harness and a one-piece racing seat bolted to the floorboard) was a no-brainer. It does make sense on the track, where the chance of a rollover is a lot greater than it is on your local main street. But on the street, I think it should purely be a matter of preference.

Personally, I'm glad that Mazda doesn't offer some form of factory rollover protection a la Z3, S2000, tt, etc. Most of those solutions would have to be ripped out and replaced with a real 4 or more point bar to be truly safe on the track anyway. But I would love to see standardized reinforcement points from the factory where aftermarket rollover protection could be bolted in.

Iain

BlueSal

13th June 2002, 14:35

We need more data.
I understand tall drivers concern on being rear ended, but I think some conclusions are being assumed.
Has anyone hit their head in a rear end collision with SFI 45.1 padding on their bar?
What was the speed and outcome?
I hope none of us ever have to test this, but is the info out there?

[ 13 June 2002, 14:40: Message edited by: BlueSal ]

Green00

13th June 2002, 15:42

Its not JUST a "tall driver" issue, either. I sat in front of an Autopower bar recently. I'm short enough that if the seat flipped straight back, my head probably would slide under the bar -- and would nail the upright rear leg. As far as I can tell, few people even pad those.

That's what's great about this forum -- I was all set to follow the herd and order a bar. Now, some people have raised really good questions, and I'm once again re-thinking the issue. :rolleyes:

bwob

13th June 2002, 20:41

I understand tall drivers concern on being rear ended, but I think some conclusions are being assumed.And why not? There's a single assumption serving as the basis of the entire roll bar/sports bar/style bar issue which is happily assumed by all the roll bar proponents; that is that they will, in fact, protect the occupant(s) in the case of a rollover. Aftermarket suppliers are not required to perform any of the rollover testing a manufacturer would if a roll bar were a factory item.

Additionally, as has been mentioned style bars (and indeed some roll bars) can 'mousetrap' on a car's occupants initiating or increasing injury. Testing in accordance with regulatory procedures would determine this in short order.

Of course the standard argument which comes up again and again is that 'any roll bar is better than no roll bar' could be proven or disproved if aftermarket supplier providing implied protection came under the same guidelines and carried similar responsibility as vehicle manufacturers.

If I were predisposed to produce an aftermarket roll bar which provided real or implied protection, I'd bite the bullet and run it through the same testing procedures as a car manufacturer would. To my mind anyone believing that a roll bar can protect them should be deserving of the sort of proof generated by documentary evidence collected through repeatable procedures. As well as compliance with regulations a car manufacturer must meet.

Then again, perhaps those who assume perhaps get what they deserve.

bwob
__________
Friends don't let friends drive Hindustan Ambassadors

[ 14 June 2002, 07:13: Message edited by: bwob ]

Robbi Laurenson

13th June 2002, 21:26

In a world comprised largely of assumptions, one must neccesarily assume, and use one's head in doing so as a technique to safely navigate life's perils.

I for one will assume that given the experience of this forum and the general propensity on the part of performance drivers for installing rollbars, rollbars are a proverbial good thing.

Originally posted by bwob:
[quote]I understand tall drivers concern on being rear ended, but I think some conclusions are being assumed.[quote]

And why not? There's a single assumption serving as the basis of the entire roll bar/sports bar/style bar issue which is happily assumed by all the roll bar proponents; that is that they will, in fact, protect the occupant(s) in the case of a rollover. Aftermarket suppliers are not required to perform any of the rollover testing a manufacturer would if a roll bar were a factory item.

Additionally, as has been mentioned style bars (and indeed some roll bars) can 'mousetrap' on a car's occupants initiating or increasing injury. Testing in accordance with regulatory procedures would determine this in short order.

Of course the standard argument which comes up again and again is that 'any roll bar is better than no roll bar' could be proven or disproved if aftermarket supplier providing implied protection came under the same guidelines and carried similar responsibility as vehicle manufacturers.

If I were predisposed to produce an aftermarket roll bar which provided real or implied protection, I'd bite the bullet and run it through the same testing procedures as a car manufacturer would. To my mind anyone believing that a roll bar can protect them should be deserving of the sort of proof generated by documentary evidence collected through repeatable procedures. As well as compliance with regulations a car manufacturer must meet.

Then again, perhaps those who assume perhaps get what they deserve.

bwob
__________
Friends don't let friends drive Hindustan Ambassadors

[ 13 June 2002, 21:29: Message edited by: Joe Bliksem (Robbi Laurenson) ]

Mark Booth

13th June 2002, 21:41

One friend had a roll bar in his '95. He was involved in a freeway accident where the '95 hit the center divider. He walked away with only one injury... the gash in his head from hitting the roll bar.

His replacement '01 doesn't have a roll bar.

Mark

rgviz

13th June 2002, 22:02

Here's a summary of good points raised from time to time in the roll/style bar controversy. Rollbars were designed for racetracks (where they are often required). 1. Racecar drivers aren't concerned about being rear ended in slow traffic or at a stoplight, and even so they have helmets on to keep from bashing their skulls on the bar. 2. Roll bars are also required for racing situations where a four-point seatbelt is used. In a rollover the racing harness keeps a racecar driver fully upright with the shoulders essentially immobilized. 3. Then there's the idea that a really sturdy bar is attached to parts of a car that were not designed to hold such a thing - I think the suggested image is of a "mousetrap." 4. Lastly, there is the idea of bolting several struts in positions that could conceivably rupture the gas tank. All pretty compelling points, really.

Now here's my two cents: for the same reason I hate to see someone in a sport utility bus cut me off in bad weather, I really wouldn't want to be near another sports car where the driver has some false sense of security from having a roll bar. If you really just want chassis stiffness, try chassis bracing under the car(like they're putting on the newest sport suspension packages or LS models) and you won't look quite as silly.

FrogUSN

13th June 2002, 22:19

Originally posted by TXBavarian:
Dr. How?, you really are quite the "Rollbar Zealot", aren't you?

You know, I think all Miatas should have to be painted either hot pink or lime green, 'cause that would make them easier for other drivers to see, thus making the Miata safer and less likely to get into an accident. :rolleyes: I bet you'd be happy to let me paint mine hot pink, but would be pretty unhappy when the painters showed up at your house.

edited for a dang mispeelin' (I hate those...)

FrogUSN

13th June 2002, 22:24

Originally posted by TXBavarian:
Dr. How?, you really are quite the "Rollbar Zealot", aren't you?

You know, I think all Miatas should have to be painted either hot pink or lime green, 'cause that would make them easier for other drivers to see, thus making the Miata safer and less likely to get into an accident. :rolleyes: I bet you'd be happy to let me paint mine hot pink, but would be pretty unhappy when the painters showed up at your house.A little off topic, but when I put the gray car cover on my 2002 classic red while at a local AAA Baseball game, some a$$hole in a Giant SUV backed into it so hard that it moved 3 feet. Damage = $350. I think Pink would have caught his attention. . ., or a 12 gauge.

Dan&Zoomy

13th June 2002, 22:32

Here's another data point to consider:

On the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration's website (NHTSA (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/)), you can find a publication called The Highway Safety Desk Book (http://www.nhtsa.dot.gov/people/injury/enforce/DESKBK.html), which appears to be recommendations for law enforcement agencies. Here's a quote from that:

Equipping your patrol vehicles with a cage and roll bar will provide safety for both the officers and any prisoners that are transported.So here's a recommendation from the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration to put roll bars in street vehicles that don't have racing seats or harnesses, and where the driver is unhelmeted.

Mark Booth

13th June 2002, 22:56

Law enforcement personnel are frequently required to drive well above the speed limit and weave in and out of traffic. So, yes, a roll bar make sense on any and all Miatas being driven by law enforcement personnel "on the job". :)

Mark

MilesA

13th June 2002, 22:56

stepping gingerly into the quagmire...

One thing I have not heard mentioned is the assumption that the car will roll on a flat surface. Since the car is open at the top, and the clearance between the top of the head and the top of the bar is small, there is nothing to stop a boulder, stump, curb, etc. from impacting the occupant, if they are unlucky and rollover in such a place.

This would not be the case for a closed car like the police cruiser mentioned earlier.

Now, one could always say any rollbar is better than none and the controversy will continue for another round...

7000 RPM

14th June 2002, 01:15

Personally, I'm glad that Mazda doesn't offer some form of factory rollover protection a la Z3, S2000, tt, etc. Most of those solutions would have to be ripped out and replaced with a real 4 or more point bar to be truly safe on the track anyway. But I would love to see standardized reinforcement points from the factory where aftermarket rollover protection could be bolted in.I agree wholeheartedly with this statement. I installed a HDHCDD in my 2001 just this past April. Drove my car down to Bethania Garage and Tom and I put it in a few hours, along with some Willans 3" 6 point harnesses. I'm still trying to figure out what sheetmetal we cut..You are talking about the thin sheeting that goes over the fuel tank? I'd hardly be concerned about that..

The Hard Core is a lot easier to install than the Sport. I don't know about the Hard Bar but if you are looking to run open track that's not the bar of choice. A lot of schools and clubs are likely to ban you from running on the track unless you have a 4 point bar. With the Hard Core I figured I'd have all the bases covered.

At 5'2" the bar is nowhere near my head. It looks incredibly "trick". Now I have to figure out how to modify my boot so it can fit around the bar and the harnesses..Otherwise it's prefect.

The 2001 chassis is pretty stiff already but the bar definitely helped. It also dialed out some of the inherent understeer in the suspension. It performed beautifully while running at Deals Gap. :)

A rollbar is like life insurance...You hope you'll never have to use it. I think it's like anything else you bolt in your car. It's a matter of personal taste and circ*mstances as to whether or not it's for you. It's definitely for me. :)

Sputnik

14th June 2002, 09:41

Originally posted by rgviz:
1. Racecar drivers aren't concerned about being rear ended in slow traffic or at a stoplight, and even so they have helmets on to keep from bashing their skulls on the bar.I'm worried about that. It is correct that any person (regardless of height) can hit their head on the bar in an accident, and cause greater injury in that particular accident. But that's why you pad the bar. It's an easy, safe, and effective fix. The fact that someone's unpadded roll bar is dangerous in that manner is not because roll bars are unsafe, it is because that person's installation is unsafe. 3. Then there's the idea that a really sturdy bar is attached to parts of a car that were not designed to hold such a thing - I think the suggested image is of a "mousetrap." All theories from us amateurs aside, show me one picture where a properly installed roll bar caused the car to bend in such a manner, and I'll show you an accident where intrusion would have occurred with or without that roll bar. 4. Lastly, there is the idea of bolting several struts in positions that could conceivably rupture the gas tank. ???? I don't understand that one. Every roll bar/cage that I have seen so far (custom or commercially available) adds very strong bars surrounding the gas tank. A roll bar/cage will protect the gas tank, not threaten it. Again, if you are in an accident with intrusion and forces which are so great that the roll bar snaps, then you are in an accident where that gas tank would have been intruded upon even if the roll bar wasn't there. ...I really wouldn't want to be near another sports car where the driver has some false sense of security from having a roll bar...Again, think of the big picture. If a certain driver drives recklessly because of a false sense of security from a roll bar, then that same driver will drive recklessly from a false sense of security from his/her new sticky tires, or his new brake pads, or even his idea that he is invincible, and that bad things happen to other people. That doesn't mean that you shouldn't be wary of those drivers, but the roll bar is not the cause.

Folks, whether you think a roll bar is a safe and effective addition to your car is up to each individual. But don't base your decision on one or two types of accidents (unless you are plan to get into a particular accident). Think of the whole picture, and keep in mind the odds of this or that type of accident happening. When one person reports that he was hindered by his/her roll bar, or would have been helped by a roll bar, take everything into consideration. To just decry roll bars because one person bumped his head on an unpadded bar is like saying all white people are prejudiced against blacks because a few nutjobs participate in the KKK.

---jps
'99 Sport

Sputnik

14th June 2002, 09:48

Originally posted by redline7000:
...At 5'2" the bar is nowhere near my head...Before you feel safe without padding, sit in the car without the seatbelt. Then twist and contort your body every way that you can think of and make an honest effort to try and touch the bar with your head. The reason why you need to do this without a seatbelt is because you will not be able to physically exert the same forces on the belt that your body will in an accident. If you still can't touch the bar, then cool. But before you make the decision not to pad the bar, remember the videos of crash test dummies contorting everywhich way in accident testing. Your body will do the exact same thing in an accident.

As a side note, even if you can't touch the bar, think about your passengers...

---jps
'99 Sport

[ 14 June 2002, 09:49: Message edited by: sputnik ]

Green00

14th June 2002, 10:38

The bottom line for me comes down to this -- if my head squarely hits a 3/4" to 1" SFI padded bar when I'm rear ended by some idiot at 20 mph+ (a scenario statistically much more likely than a rollover), am I likely to suffer brain damage or other serious injury?

If the answer is "no," then I need a roll bar. If the answer is "yes," then I'm better of without it. Without a definitive medical opinion on this question (and I have no idea where to get one -- though the article previously quoted in this thread is a start), I can only speculate as to which is the right answer.

cgreer00

14th June 2002, 12:15

Just to let you all know how I resolved the padding issue:

I wrapped every exposed inch of my HDHCDD with SFI padding. This padding is very stiff but deforms upon a high impact. I then took the cell foam padding that gives more easily, and wrapped it on top of the SFI padding. I now have close to 2" of padding on my rollbar, with the outside padding giving a lot and the inside SFI padding hardly giving at all. I then wrapped it all up with WRAPZ to keep it looking clean. I can hit the bar as hard as freakin possible with my forearm, and it just smarts for a second. I have slammed my head into the bar as well, and it was a shock but I never had a headache or anything like that. I sit below the bar, so if I ever hit it it will probably be a glancing blow. I feel that anything under 40 MPH I won't have a serious head injury. Over that, I am probably in big trouble. Of course if any Miata gets rear ended at over 40 MPH, the occupants will have serious neck injuries and probably worse. I used to have pictures of all of this padding on my site, and I am trying to get my site back online.

I have had a LOT of compliments on the appearance of the car after the bar and padding were put in. I think it gives it a more aggressive appearance, and people take the car seriously.

Chris

pat conlon

14th June 2002, 12:48

Originally posted by Green00:
The bottom line for me comes down to this -- if my head squarely hits a 3/4" to 1" SFI padded bar when I'm rear ended by some idiot at 20 mph+ (a scenario statistically much more likely than a rollover), am I likely to suffer brain damage or other serious injury?
Yes... There is a high probability you will be critically, if not fatally, injured either through brain trauma or a broken neck.
Do the math yourself.
(hint) To get a CLOSE APROXIMATION a 20mph impact use the 10 mph G force values shown in Table 1 of the SFI Specification 45.1 and multiply by 10.
Remember folks what killed Dale Ernhart was not brain trauma but fractures of the C-1 and C-2.
What your brain may survive your neck and spinal cord may not, as NASCAR has discovered.

[ 14 June 2002, 12:57: Message edited by: pat conlon ]

stiles_s

14th June 2002, 13:37

Seems like lots of people trying to justify their current position :) ... a couple comments:
1)if your head is sitting high enough to crack the bar, then it's probably high enough to (without a bar) bend backwards on rear impact. Wouldn't you want a stationary object there to limit the rearward movement of your head? I would. I think it all depends on proximity.
2) One of the big reasons I got my HDSport was SUVs. Big ones. If I get rear-ended by one of them, they're probably going *over* me. I'd like some steel behind my head if this happens, thanks. I'd rather get smacked on my noggin by my bar than have an SUV on my lap.

I was rear ended in my 85CRXsi by an Eldorado that was travelling approx 40mph (I was stopped). The forces are scary, it's tough to predict exactly how things will deform/react. I had the presence of mind to scrunch down in my seat in preparation for impact. Still, the force of my head (wanting to stay "at rest"), nearly broke the headrest off of the seat (bent it at a 45deg angle). Stereo blew out of the dash, Seat back-rest angle adjuster failed (seat blew backwards), etc.

IMHO, we're tossing around a bunch of theory here. I've yet to hear of anyone dying from a rear-impact as a result of cracking their head on the rollbar. I have heard a few stories of people would would be healthier today if they'd had a rollbar.

YMMV.

FormerDatsun510Man

14th June 2002, 14:25

Gord96BRG

14th June 2002, 14:27

Originally posted by rgviz:
1. Racecar drivers aren't concerned about being rear ended in slow traffic or at a stoplight, and even so they have helmets on to keep from bashing their skulls on the bar. I've seen plenty of racecars get rear-ended by other racecars - either on the starting grid, or during or immediately following an accident. Further - I've seen even more race cars crash backwards into a barrier, where the forces will be similar or greater to being rear-ended. I'd say your exception (racecars don't get rear-ended) isn't valid.

Other point - aside from open wheel racers (where the co*ckpit is padded and the roll bar is way behind the driver's head), tin-top racers have a roll cage which is SFI padded at every conceivable contact point. A roll bar in a street car should be similarly padded.

3. Then there's the idea that a really sturdy bar is attached to parts of a car that were not designed to hold such a thing - I think the suggested image is of a "mousetrap."Nobody has ever said a Miata roll bar isn't properly attached, nor that a roll bar could mousetrap. You're referring to style bars, which aren't attached securely to hold up in rollovers and can mousetrap. This discussion isn't about style bars.

4. Lastly, there is the idea of bolting several struts in positions that could conceivably rupture the gas tank. All pretty compelling points, really.
If you'd ever seen a proper roll bar mounted, you'd quickly realize (as one other poster pointed out) that those rear braces aren't coming loose - they add protection to the tank.

Regards,
Gordon

[ 14 June 2002, 14:28: Message edited by: Gord96BRG ]

BlueSal

14th June 2002, 15:09

pat conlon

14th June 2002, 16:40

Kevin M.

14th June 2002, 17:13

Originally posted by Mark Booth:
One friend had a roll bar in his '95. He was involved in a freeway accident where the '95 hit the center divider. He walked away with only one injury... the gash in his head from hitting the roll bar.

His replacement '01 doesn't have a roll bar.

MarkMy friend was once in a car accident in which he wasn't wearing his seatbelt. He survived because he was thrown from the car which caught fire. His current car does not have seatbelts.

Ok, I just made that up to illustrate how stupid that post was.

;)

Kevin

7000 RPM

14th June 2002, 17:48

Originally posted by sputnik:
Originally posted by redline7000:
...At 5'2" the bar is nowhere near my head...Before you feel safe without padding, sit in the car without the seatbelt. Then twist and contort your body every way that you can think of and make an honest effort to try and touch the bar with your head. The reason why you need to do this without a seatbelt is because you will not be able to physically exert the same forces on the belt that your body will in an accident. If you still can't touch the bar, then cool. But before you make the decision not to pad the bar, remember the videos of crash test dummies contorting everywhich way in accident testing. Your body will do the exact same thing in an accident.

As a side note, even if you can't touch the bar, think about your passengers...

---jps
'99 SportTrust me..there is no way I could come even close to touching the bar with my head! Even if you turned the car over and shook me out of it the bar wouldn't touch my head! My seat is pulled all the way up and the Hard Core bar is way back behind the stock windblocker. The seatbacks tower over my head...

I am a really small person. ;)

When I run at the track I use the 6 point harnesses so my body isn't going anywhere.

As far as a passenger goes. On the street I rarely, if ever, have a passenger. I think I've had two people ride in the car with me since I've gotten it. My 7 year old daughter's head comes nowhere near the bar as well.

On the track I might have a driving instructor..So I could easily zip-tie some racing-spec padding to the bar if needed...point taken. :)

7000 RPM

14th June 2002, 17:52

Originally posted by FormerDatsun510Man:
Everyone must get a full roll cage, fire proof suit, helmet, 5-pt. racing harness, fire extingisher PERIOD! The government will impound all vehicles that don't meet these requirements PERIOD!!I got 'em all except for the full roll cage. I guess the Hard Dog Hard Core will have to do..

Simpson Racing Suit..check
Simpson LX Plus full face SNELL 95 helmet..check
Willans 3" 6 point racing harness....check
Halon 2.5" fire extinguisher..check.

I'm good to go! :p

bwob

14th June 2002, 21:04

Bwob, you chose a different assumption from what I meant.
Some have assumed that roll bar AND padding would be harmful in a rear-ender.
For this we have no data.

Yes, it is a different assumption but one which is basic to the entire roll bar issue (padded or not). Until aftermarket suppliers are willing to perform installed tests using repeatable criteria, reliable comparative data will be nonexistent regardless of the accident type (rollover, rear-ender or side impact).

Since safety is implied with the addition of a roll bar, one would imagine that people interested in one would want some verification of any safety improvement beyond the hearsay 'evidence' which is all that's available at this point in time.

Yes, I know rollbars are aftermarket fittings, but so what? Can anyone come up with a logical reason as to why the suppliers of a device which provides an implied or actual improvement occupant safety shouldn't test such an item in accordance with accepted international standards? I cannot help to think there would be more rationalization - especially as regards the financial impact - than logic provided.

So until the aftermarket accepts a degree of responsibility and starts testing in conformance with the same regulatory guidelines which a vehicle manufacturer must perform, any and all data available is only as good as that which can made up over a round of beers in the local pub.

Caveat emptor.

bwob
__________
Friends don't let friends drive FWD cars

[ 15 June 2002, 18:44: Message edited by: bwob ]

Maz

14th June 2002, 23:46

Dr. How! Must get Volvo! Safest in rollovers! In fact, if Dr. How does not see the light, the long arm of the government must lead him to it! Mandate sedans! Safe! (Sure like those exclamation points!) Thank God we live in a country where we still have choices, and let the safety nazis be damned! I could have choosen to buy another Corvair convertible, or even another motorcycle, rather than a non-rollbarred Miata. But I have a choice, and **** those who wish to take my choice away!!!

[ 15 June 2002, 10:08: Message edited by: Maz ]

Eric Rowland

15th June 2002, 00:39

Eric Rowland

15th June 2002, 00:52

Ford Prefect

15th June 2002, 01:49

With great respect to all contributors . . . does the horse still breathe? :confused:

[edited for grammer]

[ 15 June 2002, 13:13: Message edited by: 2K1 MX5 ]

Mark Booth

16th June 2002, 01:28

Hey Eric,

How's the fish? :)

Mark

rgviz

26th June 2002, 00:15

Originally posted by sputnik:
To just decry roll bars because one person bumped his head on an unpadded bar is like saying all white people are prejudiced against blacks because a few nutjobs participate in the KKK.

---jps
'99 Sport[/QB]The point by point response is okay (if it didn't miss the point of the cumulative effect of all the arguments) but there really is no need to sink into offensive racist analogies - isn't there a monitor on this forum?

Joe Doolittle

26th June 2002, 00:34